Fresh back from Apple’s annual WWDC, Drs. Haroon, Sohaib and Royan discuss “technology addiction” and its impact on today’s youth. Is this the epidemic that some psychologists fear it is? Hear our views of the pros and cons of today’s “attention economy”.
Dr. Haroon Kazem: Hey guys, thanks for joining us on another episode of the Body Clock Podcast presented to you by Owaves. I am Dr. Haroon and I’m joined remotely by doctors Royan and Dr. Sohaib. We have an awesome episode lined up for you guys today. We’re going to be diving into the effects of technology on kids and how it affects their body clocks. We have some pretty cool studies that we wanted to kind of dive into and discuss a bit and hopefully you’ll enjoy the show. Royan, did you want to touch on that that story that you shared with us this week or the article.
Dr. Royan Kamyar: The Medium article.
Dr. Haroon Kazem: Yeah. So last week, or last episode I should say, we left off with talking about the impact, the potential impacts and current impact of technology addiction on the next generation, right? Specifically, the youngsters our kids, nephews, and nieces. What’s going to happen to them? They’re carrying around an iPhone 24/7 and stuck on social media.
So that was a question Sohaib had posted, they had an interesting discussion at Harvard Business School in a forum on the topic and that Medium article I circulated, which we should put in the podcast, was written by a psychologist. And he was essentially directly attacking the technology community, specifically Silicon Valley for purposely introducing addictive techniques into their software in order to intentionally put people onto their platforms. Literally only thinking about the competitive aspects of what they were doing, only think about bottom line. The fear now is that it has really grown into a monster and at least this specifically.
Dr. Haroon Kazem: Cool.
Dr. Royan Kamyar: And the title,if you guys can remind me was pretty harsh.
Dr. Haroon Kazem: I believe the title of the article was The Tech Industry’s War on Kids. And for those that are listening that aren’t aware, I think it is B.J. Fogg specifically, right? At Stanford?
Dr. Royan Kamyar: He was definitely highlighting B.J. Fogg’s role because you know he is sort of a godfather for the Instagram founders and Nir Eyal, who wrote the book Hooked, went to his classes at Stanford. You know he was initially labeled as a persuasive computer scientist or persuasive technologist.
But now is more labeling himself as a behavioral designer and definitely instilling more ethics into his curriculum and because of these issues but I don’t think it’s fair to target B.J. Fogg specifically which is what this article did and probably how he was able to get more buzz around it. You know because B.J. Fogg has such a big name. But basically, what the author was doing-and we should have that in front of us too.-What’s his name.
Dr. Haroon Kazem: His name was Richard Freed. He’s a child and adolescent psychologist. He’s the author of Wired Child: Reclaiming Childhood in a Digital Age.
Dr. Sohaib Imtiaz: Before we go into the article, generally we’ve got statistics that do tell us that people are staying up much later than previously in the last 15 years. And if we say the iPhone was released in 2007, Craig Zucker.
Dr. Haroon Kazem: I believe so. Yeah.
Dr. Sohaib Imtiaz: So, I mean like if I go on my Instagram, you can get a bit of an analysis of when people-it tells you when your audience your followers are most active. And if I look at my kind of the statistics a lot of my followers are active between 12 midnight and 2 a.m. So that means a lot of people post at that time to get more user engagement.
So it’s kind of a vicious cycle. So I mean younger people are staying up later and that’s where your article comes in because I mean we’ve already established a demographic of young people staying up later and that’s what that’s what the article explains why.
Dr. Haroon Kazem: Yeah I’m certainly guilty of it. I don’t know if I could still classify myself as a young person. I’d like to but I know-.
Dr. Royan Kamyar: You are with me around.
Dr. Haroon Kazem: That’s a really good point, Sohaib. I feel-we were kind of talking a little bit before the podcast about the effects of like the blue light technology and how like some of these tech companies are making strides to try to limit the effects of us being on our phones late. But do you feel like they’re really trying or do you feel like that’s just the way of really masking what’s going on? What are your guys’ thoughts?
Dr. Royan Kamyar: I think that they have to be trying. I think they are trying because they know that society cares, society’s watching. So, that was essentially the thesis of the article that Richard Freed wrote, was he was trying to get the American Psychological Association, American Psychology Association to basically you know declare war back on Silicon Valley and start pushing for regulation and, you know, gathering around as a body.
His whole his whole thesis was that, you know, psychology, psychotherapist should be healing people, should be helping people and it shouldn’t create this sort of black art of people using those practices and that knowledge to get people hooked and addicted to their devices, their companies, their platforms. So I think that message has been sent loud and clear, not only by this psychologist-and that Medium article went extremely viral, right?
It got tons of shares tons of likes and went around very impactful communities, right? Silicon Valley is well aware of this article. Most psychologists have, you know, the ones that are active in these organizations have seen this article now. And so, combined with the Time Well Spent movement, combined with what Google has done, what Samsung had done previously, what Arianna Huffington is bringing to light, with Tribe Global there is a cultural awareness and movement to address these concerns head on. So I don’t think executives can pay lip service. You know, that’s what you were kind of asking about. I don’t think that they can take this issue lightly because there’s way too many people take paying attention. I think the consequences would be too strong.
Dr. Sohaib Imtiaz: Do you think the whole generation’s been affected because I was looking at some statistics. The U.K. for example, where I am, where I reside, the average, the average amount of sleep people got say 15, 20 years ago were 7 to 8 hours. Now statistics show it’s about six hours maximum, six hours and a half, that’s the average sleep. So, I mean, wake times have stayed steady because that’s-work dictates when we wake up, that part of the circadian rhythm to a degree. There are more people-that’s another topic, actually people on the gig economy means we’re working more flexibly so we can set our own kind of day. But I mean, people are sleeping later. So night times have become later, so are we a generation here? An impact you might see in 20 years’ time.
Dr. Royan Kamyar: Yes absolutely. That’s why there’s a loud cry for help. That’s why Richard Freed wrote the type, the tone of article that he did. He basically said these guys are declaring war on our kids. They’re hijacking their minds. These are the most susceptible people in our population and they’ve basically just gone full blast on them and it’s true. You know you have one of the early BP is that Facebook, who was in charge of growth saying that, you know, in front of Stanford Business School saying, “we did these intentionally to addict people, these techniques that we-. So, you know, Tony Fadell, right?
He’s the creator of the iPod and iPhone and iPad, right? So basically, you know, he was on stage at the Wisdom 2.0 Conference in New York which you know Anderson Cooper hosted, Arianna Huffington was there, you know, speaking on these topics and he basically was saying the exact same thing. The guy who helped create the iPhone, right? Was basically saying that these are addictive, dangerous devices that, you know, we should be really careful to put in our kids hands. Steve Jobs was known for limiting his kids screen use time.
Dr. Haroon Kazem: Do you feel like parents need to take more of more of a role in limiting the amount of time and usage that children and teenagers are on these sorts of devices or do you feel like the opportunity’s already gone for them to do that because they’re going to be exposed to it by their friends at school or even by the schools themselves incorporating these new technologies in.
Originally what was supposed to be sort of like a way to further their learning and to make things that much more accessible, it seems to sort of be having like a negative impact too, from what it looks like because nowadays. I mean, from my own personal experience like I have I have you know lots and nephews and a niece and I think every time I see them they’re on a smart device. I can see how this is becoming a new problem. But do you feel like parents could do more teachers could do more?
Dr. Royan Kamyar: I think that was the beauty of Richard Free’s argument. He’s like, “that argument does not hold. Like, this is not fair to the parent because you literally have, you know, billions of dollars in investment, some of the smartest people on earth coalesced to beat them in occupying their child’s minds.
That’s literally how he’s framing the argument, right? And so he’s he’s taking the burden almost completely off the parents which I don’t think is totally fair, to your point. I think obviously parents can do something as subtle and physical as taking the device the other child’s hands. But at the same time, you know, what is one of the first things you know a kid wants for their birthday it’s like a toy remote control, right? A toy phone because they see in their parents hands all the time, right?
Dr. Haroon Kazem: Yup.
Dr. Royan Kamyar: So that’s the attraction and that’s the sort of you know vicious circle of the whole thing. But so what, you know, Apple has done so, you know, we’re talking about this fresh off the heels of WWDC. I was lucky enough to be there for the keynote where they presented these tools to help curb technology addiction on the iPhone. Following the footsteps what Google did for its Digital Wellbeing initiative, what Samsung had done with Thrive and so they have three solutions, right?
Being able to tailor notifications, being able to create “do not disturb” modes and giving you sort of a time management breakdown of where you’re spending time in your apps. So part of that, I believe it’s in the “do not disturb” component of this, is increased parental controls. So parents can actually turn off their kid’s devices at bedtime for example. And that was something that was not-you were not able to do before.
So, Haroon, coming back to your point once again, I think what the technology companies should be doing and seem to be doing, at least Apple’s doing now, is placing the controls back on the parents and saying, “look we’re going to give you the levers to turn certain apps off for a certain amounts of time to turn, you know, to turn the entire device off. Should you know should you deem it necessary to do so. And here’s how.” So they’re kind of giving the the control back to the parents.
Dr. Haroon Kazem: I’m sure the-those those children or those kids of those parents probably wish they had the same control so that mom and dad weren’t on Facebook and Instagram quite so much themselves, right?
Dr. Sohaib Imtiaz: So do you think that, for example, Scandinavian countries because there was studies done that adolescents need to sleep more than adults. So school time or lecture times for universities should actually be a lot later in the day for maximum cognitive performance and learning and memory. So do you think they’ve taken that into the equation? How it impacts adolescence, say, more than probably adults because of that increased-everyone with a smartphone is practically living that same life?
Dr. Haroon Kazem: I think so. Personally I feel like most of the people that you see outside or sort of, you know, not necessarily like walking zombies but they’re all really sleepy and I’m sure a good part of that has to do with like overuse of those devices. And so, absolutely. Especially with a child’s growing brain. I mean, that’s like one of the most important things that you have to get a child to do is to rest and sleep so that they can grow because we don’t grow unless we sleep, right?
So it’s one of those things that I think for sure is negatively impacting their growth and development. Like I think ultimately the goal of ensuring sleep and making sure that you know it’s met to a certain amount is to like just restore happiness, satisfaction of life, you know, productivity and cognitive abilities and whatnot. And I found an interesting article on LinkedIn that mentioned that in a recent TED talk last year a psychiatrist named Robert Waldinger discuss the findings of a 75 year study on adult development that they conducted over Harvard and they basically found that one of the most important contributing factors to happiness was healthy genuine relationships.
And basically those who are who are more socially connected were happier and healthier, whereas those who are more isolated were less happy and lived shorter lives. And so it’s also, it also mentions that the social interactions that are set up through platforms like Facebook and Instagram or whatnot those are actually considered to be superficial and isolating and less genuine than face to face interactions. And so I think a big thing with kids especially is there at those ages you know K through 12 where they’re learning how to develop social interactions and how to speak with other people separate from their family circle.
I mean now that they’re on these devices, it’s more than anything else, it’s giving them a reason to not do that and to sort of stay in their rooms and just communicate with the world from their phone or their iPad. So kind of going in line with development and lack of sleep including now you’re sort of encouraging isolation. I don’t think the outcome of that could be very good, twenty years from now.
Dr. Sohaib Imtiaz: Definitely, so I think this is where Owaves comes in quite well because Royan is creating a system where people are reminded of activities that keep them healthy, almost because with social media as we know, you can end up spending hours without even realizing. So, I mean, the Owaves compatible with the Apple Watch or different devices I think, Royan you said you an Android soon as well?
Dr. Royan Kamyar: Yes. We’re working on it.
Dr. Sohaib Imtiaz: And I guess the emojis, it reminds people before they get lost that, look this is what we should be doing with how to optimize your day and your performance, I mean, it’d be great if you could tell us a bit more on how that would work.
Dr. Royan Kamyar: If you look at the Digital Wellbeing initiative by Google, right? Or you look at Apple’s-what do they call their time management app? This Time, what? Time Spent?
Dr. Haroon Kazem: I think so.
Dr. Royan Kamyar: And, you know, if you look at what Samsung did with Thrive, they’re giving you these sort of pie charts of how you spent your time according to Facebook, Instagram, you know, slack, email. And that’s not how we should view our life, right? If that’s my entire pie chart, you know, I’m going to an island and I’m not bringing any devices with me and you guys will never see me again, right?
Like, that would be, if that’s really how my life gets broken down in this modern era, then I don’t think wants to be a part of it. And so what we’re trying to say is, hey look, no. For a long healthy life, what you’re talking about the adult longitudinal study, right? Which is the study that Harvard-out of Harvard that Haroon had mentioned, are you talking about the Blue Zones Research or if you’re talking about Dean Ornish’s, you know, legacy of research. American College of lifestyle medicine’s movement, right? The ingredients for a long healthy life are known. They’re actually kind of obvious and eastern and western physicians do not disagree on this point. That exercise is good for you. That sleep is good for you. That nutrition is good for you. That stress management is necessary.
Heart disease is the number one killer in most developed nations and states. And it’s common time for a heart attack is a Monday morning right. So stress is a major killer. And social stress, right? So sad that we need evidence just like decades of research to prove this to us, but you know having genuine deep social relationships is a very, it’s a very- I was gonna say “nutritious” thing-but it’s a very-what is the word? Nurturing. It’s very-it’s a good thing. And so these are fundamental ingredients for a long, healthy life. And basically, you know, Sohaib, so as you know what we’re doing with Owaves and thanks for giving me the chance to speak about it, is we’re trying to create a time management graph, a pie chart of how you spend your day.
But according to these buckets, the buckets that matter, who cares how much time I spend in Facebook and Instagram? That’s not how I view my life or my day. And I guess that’s where people’s buckets of time are going and so that becomes a necessity or requirement within these devices, but we want to remind people there’s a life outside of these devices. There’s tons of research and tons of knowledge about what we should be doing in that offline world in order to have a long, healthy life. And that’s ultimately the O or the visualization that we want to present to the user. Reframing your life more holistically around these lifestyle vital signs, as we call them.
Dr. Haroon Kazem: Yeah, I think a big part of that is like just bringing that to the attention of the individual is like, “hey do you realize how much time you’re spending on these things?” And something like Owaves to give you like a visual breakdown of what you’re doing with your day helps a lot because most of the people that I meet in both like my practice and in like the teaching world, they all tell me they’re visual learners. That’s probably the number one thing I hear so I think is really hits the nail right on the head with just the design and how simple you know you can just view what you’re doing with your day.
Dr. Royan Kamyar: Thanks, Haroon. Yeah actually it’s our second to last review on the iTunes store was from someone with ADHD and knows literally what they’re saying is they needed a visual planner. And so we know for that community this is really important. But, you know, even without Owaves in the picture, so thinking thinking big for a second, thinking broadly, right? I think Owaves is going to play a huge role in this. And I’m so glad to see you know I really see these companies now these consumer electronics manufacturers moving in our direction. That’s how I see it.
And that’s what I was articulating to all the Apple executives I could get my hands on at the conference and I “look like we’re totally in line with your values. And in fact I think we’re a few steps ahead. So help us out partner with us let’s go.” And we’re getting good response. They get it. The Time Well Spent movement is hitting all these circles. But look, I don’t think that technology induced or technology integrated lifestyle is as black or dark at all. In fact I’m really excited about it. One of the other things that Apple announced at this conference are the increasing our capabilities, right guys? So basically, bringing your online experience back to the off line or real world.
Right? So eventually, you know, this totally sad and true and current situation of a kid sitting on his bed half the day because he’s getting all his social interactions through the phone, I really believe that we can recreate this. We can build and build a world where they’re getting that same sort of digital satisfaction and a real world environment. And I think the precursor to this is Pokemon Go, right?
Dr. Haroon Kazem: Yeah, sure.
Dr. Royan Kamyar: And just before, you know, you all respond, that last part about this I think would be fundamental to sort of a shift in how this technology influences our lifestyles, is having a heads up display, right? And we know that there’s a ton of companies working on this. It’s not an easy fix. There’s a lot of cultural gaps. Google Glass had that big rise and fall but if it’s a contact lens or if it’s made cool by a company like Snapchat with spectacles-right?
I think that if we can get all this digital satisfaction and a heads up way, first of all it’ll really help my tech neck, which I have big time right now. But, you know, really it’ll help make us active again and all or are technological satisfaction can come through the real real world environment, which is what I think A.R. is doing and why I’m really excited about that space as well.
Dr. Haroon Kazem: Sohaib, you have a lot of experience sort of like in the A.R.-oh and for those that don’t know what we mean. That’s augmented reality-you’ve had quite a bit of experience lately, from our conversations with like A.R. and developing and all that kind of stuff. What are your thoughts?
Dr. Sohaib Imtiaz: Definitely. I mean, that’s what I was coming to. Ergonomically, I mean, as Royan mentioned, sitting on your phone all day I mean you get neck pain, back pain, you’ve not moved. Latest guidelines suggest we should be moving at least every hour for health benefits. So I think A.R. will be real game changer. I mean, V.R. was the one that everyone first thought would be applicable to many things.
I have tried out a few V.R. headsets but their limitation is that you are still stagnant, you’ve got this V.R. headset and you lose you lose kind of your awareness of the present. So A.R. is basically, obviously augmenting the digital world in reality. So, I mean, I think a lot of these things are-in medicine, there’s a lot of physio companies, gyms even, who are using exercise and augmented reality to make exercise more fun for people, increase user engagement. Because you can still go on a real jog but say you could have a virtual tour guide or, you know, you could have, for example, Usain Bolt running in front of you.
I mean, it can make things be very creative, it can really free you up and you can you can do a lot of collaborations and there’s a huge potential. So I think from them all the leading experts that I’ve encountered, there’s a virtual surgeon in London, Professor Shafi, who’s kind of-he recently trialed the Snapchat glasses, which is more virtual reality based but uses the principals of augmented reality and that he kind of is transported to any surgical theater in the world.
So he’s doing a lot of work on how surgery can go down that way. But I mean, I think mostly it’s applicable to replacing the iPhone. So there’s a lot of futurists who are saying in the next ten years the phone the smartphone will be disrupted with augmented reality. I mean, we’ll be able to interact-we’ll still be using our-there’s a kind of static movement. I mean, we’re still moving naturally in the world, we’re not limited to just boxes that we’re looking down at. So yeah, what you guys think?
Dr. Haroon Kazem: I strongly believe that’s going to happen. I think it’s-we’re not very far away from there being the option to go to a facility and have some type of a microchip implanted in you. I think that’s really going to happen at some point. At the rate that we’re moving and there’s going to be a very you know realistic point in time when, you know, you’re going to be able to access anything from anywhere and it’s going to be embedded in you.
And that’s just the you know one of my personal kind of like opinions, where I think like 20 or 30 years ago if you showed somebody an iPhone they probably think you know it was magic. So we can only imagine you know like where we’re going with this but I think personally like technology is a good thing. And all of this stuff is a good thing. And just like everything else there needs to be moderation and control.
And I feel that we’re still learning about how to use these devices and how they affect us and we’re sort of like the guinea pigs for all this. Generations down, they’ll have a much better idea and much better data on how to kind of deal with this and what types of checks and balances and locks and whatnot that are going to be needed, whether it’s for kids or you know teenagers or even adults because adults are just as guilty honestly and of over use. And so, personally I feel like this is all a very good thing and so it’s good to see that you know for as much as is being done by these big corporations hiring on psychologists and psychiatrists to sort of figure out how to better, you know, keep your attention and sort of entice you to keep using the apps.
It’s good that there’s companies like Owaves and I’m sure many more advocates that are going to be out there to remind people like, “what are you really doing with your day? Are you are you spending your whole day in a virtual world or are you actually looking up every now and then and realizing that you know there’s a lot of really awesome things in the real world?” And finding a balance between that is the challenge, I guess and so, I think that will eventually come. But we’re very early on. What are your thoughts?
Dr. Royan Kamyar: I think it’s up to us. I think it’s up to the architects of these technologies, you know, to really instill some emotional I.Q. and some empathy and ethics. And that was really the, you know, kind of circling back to that piece with which we started, that was really-Oh Geez. Richard Freed?
Dr. Haroon Kazem: Yeah.
Dr. Royan Kamyar: I should know this. Richard Freed, Richard Freed’s point was that’s the, you know, the people who constructed the architecture of the devices and applications we’re using now were pretty admittedly narrowly looking at the bottom line and just thinking about competitive ways to get and steer our attention. And I think the next generation of entrepreneurs, including ourselves with the project Owaves, and, you know, what’s-I would say-you know, either-how do you put it?
Like,collaborative companies that are trying to push for the same mission. So, Time Well Spent is now a center for humane technologies, right? So that’s a non-profit organization, Thrive Global, is Arianna Huffington’s organization around similar mission targeting corporate wellness-right-it’s going to be the leaders it’s going to be people like ourselves that end up building the software building the hardware and making sure that we’re actually thinking about the next generation as we build them not just, you know,.
Dr. Haroon Kazem: The bottom line.
Dr. Royan Kamyar: The bottom line, yeah.
Dr. Haroon Kazem: How about yourself, Sohaib?
Dr. Sohaib Imtiaz: Yeah, so I hope-so because we’re talking about adolescence, next generation. I mean they are-it’s the future. So we have to be very mindful of not, keeping them to reach their potential. So I think even we should be, for example, with the Body Clock, giving them a clear kind of break down to do with human performance, if your body clock shifted by a certain degree, it’s quite technical, but I mean, how much it might impact their, say, exam performance as discussed in the article, you know, their sporting ability and various other factors of their daily life just by having that shift in circadian rhythm.
So I think if you can quantify things and then suggest solutions for people to improve or resurrect or, kind of, correct their circadian rhythm. I think that’s what Owaves sets out to do with the reminders. And I think Owaves can just build from this. It’ll really help people because, I mean, we as humans a lot of studies have shown Behavioral Economics shows that we make quite irrational decisions.
We do need a guiding force or guide-something like a planner to help us you know have an organized day. So I think in order for us to kind of empower the youth, they need to be, they need to know what’s actually happening with their bodies. And the more information we give them to you know smartphones and we limit the damage being done, the better it will be for all of us because when we’re in a state of exponential growth and as we talked about augmented reality will ease a lot of the problems with tech we’re facing including screen time. So, I think things are just going to get better.
Dr. Haroon Kazem: Absolutely guys, I mean, we’ve touched on so many points. I feel like we could go down rabbit holes all day, honestly. It’s such an interesting topic and I-we all find ourselves immersed in this technology so I think we’re going to have to definitely come back to this in future episodes and sort of go down those those different paths that we could take. And I thought I thought this was a really really interesting subject for today’s show. So it’s certainly making me reconsider how I how I spend my time late at night. I got to turn off the phone after nine or ten o clock from now on,
Dr. Sohaib Imtiaz: I think yeah I think what we discuss about jetlag as well because I mean it’s very hard traveling between countries. And you know as entrepreneurs, travel is a big part networking, conferences. It does disrupt your day to day.
Dr. Royan Kamyar: Yeah I feel a little out of sync right now and I just-I don’t even change time zones. I just went north and south to visit San Diego. But Sahaib, I’m glad you brought it back to the body clock and circadian rhythms, right? After all it’s what we’re all about. And you know I proposed this idea to our designer Scott, right? He’s the one that will be doing our cover art intro and outro. He’s my co-founder and lead designer here at Owaves.
You know, a human O.S., right? I mean, we talk about, you know, the O.S. for our devices so much but what about our own O.S.? And I really think-and Haroon, you had articulated this really well, you know, our biological clocks are really like such a great platform from which to start from when you think about a healthy lifestyle. And so I think part of this sort of migration or evolution from where we were with technology to where we want to go and hopefully, you know, we can all play an instrumental part of, is actually looking at our clock, our biological clock as sort of the basis for how we construct a healthy life and then using technology to help induce that, nurture that and grow that and encourage that over time instead of distracting from it instead of harming it.
And so I mean it’s such a beautiful point about, you know, adolescents and how they need more sleep and we’re giving them less with our approaches. You know, basically nurturing that in the right direction I think should be a big part of the goal that would be the niche, I think, the specialty that Owaves tries to play in this space.
Dr. Haroon Kazem: Absolutely, man. That’s an excellent point. I have us at a half an hour now. So I think we should probably call it because I believe you guys have somewhere to be. We’re definitely going to be coming back very soon with more content and any comments, feedback, suggestions please reach out to us at Owaves. You can always reach Royan and I believe you can reach me and Sohaib but you should probably go for Royan first. He’s definitely the Owaves expert out of the three of us. Through the Instagram page?
Dr. Royan Kamyar: We’ll have your social handles on there. So we’ll all be available through the website, through the team page.
Dr. Haroon Kazem: Awesome. Hope hope you guys enjoyed the show. We’ll be back very soon. Anything you guys want to say before we let them go?
Dr. Royan Kamyar: Thanks, guys.
Dr. Sohaib Imtiaz: Fun as always.
Dr. Royan Kamyar: Future is bright.
Dr. Royan Kamyar: We don’t want to paint technology as dark. We’ve got to be the bright side of this.
Dr. Sohaib Imtiaz: Future augmented.
Dr. Haroon Kazem: Life would be very boring without technology, put it that way.
Dr. Royan Kamyar: We’re going to we’re going to paint the bright side of this.
Dr. Haroon Kazem: Of course.
Dr. Sohaib Imtiaz: Tech is an enabler.
Dr. Haroon Kazem: Tech tech all the way. Thank you guys. We’ll be back.
Dr. Sohaib Imtiaz: Yes.
Dr. Haroon Kazem: And get some sleep.
Dr. Royan Kamyar: Bye!